CCW Safe Podcast- Episode 48: Road Rage with Steve Moses

Announcement: Welcome to the Inside CCW Safe Podcast with Founders Stan

Campbell and Mike Darter. If you’re forced to fight the battle for your life, CCW Safe

will fight the battle for your future.

Mike Darter: Hey, welcome back to the CCW Safe Podcast. I’m Mike Darter in

Oklahoma City.

Stan Campbell: I’m Stan Campbell. I’m still in LA right now, Mike. Still in LA.

Mike: It’s been a minute, man.

Stan: Yes, it’s been a while. We have been traveling so much. We’ve had to walk

away for a second and let some other people take lead for us to help us out.

Mike: Where have you been?

Stan: Oh, God, really? I’ve been–

Mike: I know you were here a couple of weeks ago.

Stan: Yes. Oklahoma City, Houston, Dallas, New York. [inaudible 00:00:53] I’m

tired, but I’ve still got a few more coming up. We’ve got Chicago coming up. New

York coming up again.

Mike: That’s IACP, right?

Stan: Yes, IACP.

Mike: From Chicago?

Stan: Yes, that’s Chicago on the 26th through the 29th, will be the 25th through the

27th. Any of our members that are there in that area or going to the IACP, make sure

you check us out. We’ll actually be walking the floors. We’ve got a bunch of really

important meetings coming up. We’re really happy about that.

Mike: Yes, it’s going to be good. I wish I could make that, but I’ll be out.

Stan: Yes. Right after that, we go straight to New York. We’re meeting with the

Lieutenant’s Benevolent Association there in New York in reference to the HR218

Plan, because they also need some off-duty coverage. It’s a great group. It’s about

3,500 comprised of mostly retired officers. I think they have about 700 or so active

police attempts from NYPD.

Mike: Wow.

Stan: Yes.

Mike: It’s a great group.

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

1

Stan: This is our second time up there with them. It’s a great group. I love what they

stand for. This is another group that takes care of the policemen. Yes, so we’re really

excited about making their meeting.

Mike: Nice. Today we got Steve Moses on again. Steve, how you doing?

Steve Moses: Oh, I’m great, guys. Good being back on.

Mike: Holding down Texas down there?

Steve: As best as I can.

Mike: Sorry about this last weekend.

Steve: I’m still an oaky at heart. Don’t tell any of the people here. No drama for me,

guys.

Stan: That’s good. It’s good to see you, Steve.

Mike: That’s a reference to the OU Texas game this last weekend.

Stan: Oh, that’s hilarious. That’s very funny.

Mike: What are we talking about, Stan?

Stan: Today we wanted to talk and pick Steve’s head, his brain, in reference to an

article that he wrote recently on road rage. We want to start off by talking about that

road rage. It comes up all the time. We get a lot of questions that come across the,

not just my desk, but those of the CWC Safe specialists in reference to road rage.

We always see something in the news that sparks a deadly shooting or at least a

shooting with injury that starts off with road rage. We want to discuss that today.

You and I will also jump in and express the need for people to take our de-escalation

class that we had, our online class on CCW Safe Academy. Just all those things.

We’re going to jump right in and talk to the man, Steve Moses.

Hey, Steve, before we get started, just a really, really quick brief on who you are,

what you do, and your background.

Steve: Again, my name is Steve Moses. I’m based out of Tyler, Texas, primarily at

this point. My primary employment was oil and gas. I retired from that late last year.

However, for 25 years, I’ve been a defensive firearms and weapons instructor. I am a

reserved deputy constable. I’ve been with the Tarrant County Constable’s Office for

18 years. I hold the rank of sergeant. I’ve also been, like I said, a longtime firearms

instructor. I’m still conducting courses. I’m going to keep doing that as long as I can.

I’m also an instructor at the [unintelligible 00:04:45] Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Gym here in

Tyler, Texas.

Stan: Awesome. Just jumping right into the topic, road rage, explain what made you

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

2

write about that, first of all, for our members, and why it’s so important to deal with it?

Steve: Two reasons for that, Stan. First of all, I took note of some of the great

articles I’ve observed in the past that CCW Safe has put forth where people have

gotten themselves into very bad circumstances as a result of responding incorrectly

to road rage incidents. Second, being in Texas, much like you guys are in Oklahoma,

spend a lot of time in an automobile, probably put 25,000 to 30,000 miles a year in

my truck. As such, I’m around people all the time. I’m around people in large urban

areas quite frequently. This is something that I have seen happen on many incidents.

There’s been more than a few where I’ve found myself basically the recipient of

another person’s rage in which I’m like, “Oh, this can turn bad.” That was something

that motivated me to write on that subject for that particular week.

Stan: Understood. Cool. I always talk about this with the members, and Mike and I,

other podcasts, we run into– Even ourselves. I get caught every day. There’s

somebody that does something that I don’t appreciate with their– It’s never me.

Steve: Oh, sure.

Stan: They always do something I don’t appreciate with their lack of driving skills or

inattention, there’s a lot of texting and driving going on. I have to check myself every

single day. [inaudible 00:06:51] pull out a weapon every time I deal with a conflict. It

is the fact that I need to be in control of myself and in that driver’s seat. If you don’t

mind, start by breaking down your article and going over your points.

Steve: The article itself was called The Road Rage Tango, and the tango, of course,

is a dance. There’s an old saying that goes, it takes two to tango. Typically when

people use that phrase, there was a negative outcome that might have been avoided

had one person not participated or agreed to be involved in that particular dance. My

thoughts were, what could we, as concealed weapon carriers, what can we do to

lessen the chances that we might be caught up in one of those scenarios. One of

those is to not do anything that would suggest to the other person that we might be

remotely interested in engaging in that tango, which means perhaps if they do

something to us, they cut us off, they pull out in front of us, they break check us,

whatever, that we don’t do anything that would give them cause to think that we had

a major issue with that.

One of the things that I have learned through my years as a police officer, is that

there are a lot of people out there that have anger issues that are simmering right

below the surface. There’s also a lot of people out there that are very sensitive to

being what they perceive as being disrespected. In many instances, some of these

people, they are willing to fight, they are willing to go to jail, they’re willing to die

rather than be perceived as being disrespected. It’s pretty obvious that there’s

nothing that we can do about that. We can’t change that other person. The only thing

that we can do is perhaps control our own actions. To that regard, I believe that it

was not a bad idea to write an article on what we could do to avoid finding ourselves

embroiled in those kind of situations.

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

3

Stan: Absolutely. Let me see. Your first tip, what would it be? Talk to us about tips

now.

Steve: One of my first tips is we need to mind the way that we drive. Basically, if

we’re someone that frequently has to speed in order to get to a place on time, if

we’re someone that is prone to changing lanes swiftly, if we’re someone that is prone

to riding right up on someone else’s bumper, well, then the chances are that we

might be accosted by someone who has those issues really goes up dramatically.

I’m really a big advocate of, I know this sounds old-fashioned, but being a good

defensive driver. There is a firearms instructor that I really respect named Claude

Werner. Claude Werner’s advice to concealed carriers was that one of the things that

you can do in order to reduce the chances you get caught up in such a situation is

just voluntarily take a defensive driving class. By doing nothing more than just trying

to drive defensively, then our chances are greatly reduced that we are going to get

caught up in it.

Stan: Absolutely.

Steve: Then another thing is– Go ahead, Stan.

Stan: I was going to say, because while you were on that, Mike, you had one of your

daughters go through a defensive driving class as well, right?

Mike: Yes. Actually both of mine that drive, Ashlyn and Aubrey, have both gone

through one with a former OHP guy. Actually I think he’s still current OHP. They went

through a defensive driving course, and it was a great course. It went over a lot more

than what the typical defensive driver for a 16-year-old is.

I think one thing you said earlier about not doing anything that would display that

you’re at all interested in that, I think that’s huge. This morning, I was coming to work

and made a right hand turn, and next thing I know, there’s a truck right on my tail. I’m

like, “Man, did I pull in front of this guy or something?” I didn’t really know. He was

right on my tail, and the first thing I wanted to do was to hit the brakes. I looked back

at him and held his hands up because I was going slower. I immediately said I just

need to go on my way, don’t even look at him in the rear view mirror, and he turned

off. I think that’s huge, just not displaying that you are at all interested in taking

anything further.

Steve: Absolutely. I’m going to have to confess that when an incident occurs where

someone does something that was overly aggressive or stupid or they were

distracted, it ticks me off, too. I have been known to mutter to myself in the car

because obviously those feelings of frustration have to go somewhere. I can’t just let

them stay in there and implode. I do everything I can to not do anything overtly that

would allow that other person to believe that I took issue with what they’re doing.

The other thing, too, is that I try to basically appear apologetic for anything that I do.

Not too long ago, I switched lanes. I have a truck, so I look in my rear view mirror, I

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

4

check my driver’s side mirror, and then I signal and I started moving in, and, man,

this guy was right in the perfect blind spot. I started moving into his lane. He honked

his horn. I quickly, quickly pulled back in my lane. When he pulled up, basically I just

held up my left hand, waved, ducked my head a little bit like, “I’m sorry, dude,” as

opposed to– He just waved and went on.

For me, it seems like a lot of time being the person that’s first to agree that they were

in the wrong goes a long ways towards maybe defusing a situation that could come

up later.

[crosstalk]

Mike: I was going to say, like you said, it’s always people make mistakes.

Steve: Yes.

Mike: We’re always going to be at fault at some point. We may not be at fault this

time, but you can’t be a perfect driver all the time.

Stan: Oh, absolutely. I always think that I’m not always right but I’m rarely wrong. I

try to pay attention to my drive, because I know sometimes I’m terrible, I get

distracted, too, just like everyone else. We’ve got this computer that we keep in our

cars now which is our mobile phones, and we have to pay attention to our emails

and text messages and stuff like that. I really have to watch myself, especially being

out here in California, I won’t be here long, but being out here in California, they are

really big on using their horns, and they’re very aggressive with it, and you just have

to just think about it in a different way.

Being that you did confessions earlier, Steve.

Steve: I started it.

Stan: One of mine was, and we’re not going to tell you people right now. It’s not

going to look good when you go to church, but it keeps you from getting to shootings.

When people do stuff to me, I take a moment and I say, “Ah, I wish you a horrible

death,” but I don’t engage. For some reason, it makes me feel better to say down the

road, sometime you’re going to die horribly. Then I’m like, “You know what? I feel

better about myself.” Then I don’t engage. You might have to go to church on that

one, but just don’t pray, but you can make a wish.

It absolutely keeps you out of harm’s way, and it keeps you from engaging. Whatever

you can do, and it doesn’t have to be my trick, but you had to find something for

yourself because we have bad days, too. Somebody, they can do just something

very small after you having a bad day, and then you’re ready to get after them.

I had one couple of weeks back where I was getting on the highway, and I had plenty

of time to merge. I started to merge, and then all of a sudden I see a car coming.

They would probably do about 95, almost 100. I couldn’t tell, so I couldn’t get into my

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

5

lane. I had to pull quickly back into the lane where you enter to avoid being hit. As

they sped past me, it was teenagers. Both passengers on my side, they both flipped

me the bird. I was like, I’m like, “Wow, I really wish I can twist your head off, but I’m

going to breathe through this. I’m going to breathe through this because I don’t need

to catch you.” That’s that drive-by courage, is what I call that. That’s drive-by courage

when they keep going. Just let them have it. That’s what I do now. I’ve got to let it

happen.

Steve: One of the things is that people that tend to conduct their lives like that,

typically don’t have lives that are all that easy. I remember is that, okay, what is it

that’s causing that person to behave like that? Probably it’s because they’ve got

some challenges in their life. They have some self-esteem issues. They’ve got their

own tough road to drive on. That gives me some consolation.

The other thing is, I just assume now, and this is going to sound horrible, I just

assume that there are a bunch of idiots out there driving. I just go ahead and say,

they’re out there and you need to watch for them. Hopefully, people are watching out

for this particular idiot here that I do try to assume that when I’m driving, when I see

someone pulling up to an intersection, that dude may very well pull right out in front

of me. If I see somebody that is in a lane and they start edging a little bit over

towards my lane, I assume that maybe they don’t see me and they’re about to move

in there. To that end, I just really tried.

It’s really not that much different than walking through a transitional area, trying to be

mindful of people that might have a bad intent on mind. I take that same general

awareness, and I try to use that when I’m driving. I’ve just found that for the most

part, I just don’t find myself involved in that much drama when I’m driving anymore.

Stan: That’s awesome. Mike, I want to include you on this question. Okay, now let’s

say [inaudible 00:18:50] before we pull over–

Mike: Hey, you just cut out, Stan. What’d you just say?

Stan: Apology. I want you to talk about some things that they can do instead of

pulling over to engage in this escalation. Do you have some other things that they

might be able to do?

Mike: I’m assuming what you’re talking about perhaps now is that there’s some party

that’s wanting to remain in contact with you. Is that correct?

Stan: Yes, on the driver.

Mike: One of the worst things you can do is go straight home. I always recommend

that I don’t care if you’re on the same street that you live on and your house is three

houses down the block, my recommendation is that you have someone that is

following you because they’ve taken issue with you, that you don’t pull into your own

home. Instead, drive on by.

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

6

The other thing is that if you’re looking for a safe place, probably one of the safest

places you can pull into is going to be a fire station. Because for the most part, those

fire stations, there’s going to be somebody there all the time.

I’m a big fan of staying away from parking lots or any area where you can be

confronted, where the other person feels like, okay, it’s relatively safe for them to

come up there and engage you. My recommendation primarily is, the don’ts are,

don’t pull into your own driveway if they’re right on your tail. The second thing is to

keep driving, locate a fire station if you can, and pull into a fire station. It may very

well be that concealed carrier is driving and there may not be a fire station, but they

see some other place in which, okay, there’s a lot of people there, the chances are

good that if I pull in there, there’ll be other people. It could be a service station, right

in front of the door where they’ve got cameras. Something like that. Sometimes you

just have to make it up as you go, if you will, that I’d do everything I could to not put

myself in a position where the other party feels like, okay, they’re relatively safe in

coming up and engaging me.

Stan: In saying that, we’ve actually worked a shooting just recently in the past six

months, one of our members who got followed, and he did not know. Of course

you’re saying if you know, don’t go home. This particular member did not know that

he was being followed and had to deal with the aftermath of this encounter.

I agree with you there. One thing that you can also remind them of is if you’re not

being followed but you’re following someone, because those end up being the ones

where you decide that you’re either going to be an extension of the police force, or

you’re just so angry that you need to deal with this person and engage with them. I

would say, I would rather you guys go ahead and copy down the tag number, only

get as close as you can to get the tag number, and then back away. Back about

several car lengths behind, call 911. That’s always a great start. Call 911 and start

getting either Highway Patrol or local police on the way. That, too, is really, really

important to do.

Anything else on that, guys?

Mike: I was going to say, one of the things you have to think about, I totally agree

with you. You can’t be, and we’ve seen it in the, is it the Drejka case in Florida?

Stan: Yes.

Mike: We saw that, where somebody took it upon themselves to be the parking lot

enforcement, and you never know what’s going to happen. Even if it’s not a shooting,

if it is a shooting, I will tell you that the next probably 16 hours of your day is going to

be tied up. You’re going to be tied up probably in the backseat of a scout car for

several hours, then you’re going to be transported to probably a homicide office to do

an interview, even if it’s not homicide, even if they lived, it’s going to be treated as a

ADW, deadly with a firearm, which, if you’re in Florida, that’s a charge that’s

automatic 20 years.

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

7

To really think about what’s going to happen, not even long-term, but short-term, if

you have any plans that day, set them aside, because they’re going to be gone.

Even if it just turned into a fight or an argument where the police were called, now

you’re going to be dealing with his word versus your word or their word, and if there’s

multiple people in that car, then it’s going to be two people versus your word. It’s just

so many things can happen, and like I said, you never know what that person, you

never know what point they’re at in their life, stable, unstable, just having the worst

day ever, just lost someone close to them. You just never know what’s going to set

them off.

I think what you were saying about, you just have to try to keep that in mind,

because it can affect you for hours even if nothing really happens.

Stan: Oh, absolutely. Then, it’s funny you say that, too. I’m going to co-sign Mike’s

thought on a bad person with friends that tells the same story can influence the

police over a good person if you’re by yourself.

Always keep that in mind because, boy, that happens all the time, and quickly you go

from being the victim, to being a suspect, and possibly arrested. Keep that in mind

because what Mike said is really true.

Mike: We’re putting together another series on the aftermath of a shooting because

it’s been a while since we’ve done that. Even in that, if you’re– God, I just lost my

train of thought.

Stan: You look pretty.

Mike: We’re talking about, if there’s– Oh, okay. You’re talking about multiple people

giving their testimony against yours.

Stan: Yes.

Mike: You also have to think about if a witness just pulled in as you are the one

getting out of your car. They may see that as you being the aggressor in that

situation.

Stan: Oh, absolutely.

Mike: That’s even almost worse because here’s this person, they have no

connection with this person, but they saw you as getting out of the car yelling at this

guy. That can be huge. We talked to Alexis Artwohl about you can have three, four

different people watch the same incident and they see it. They all see the same

thing, but it’s processed different. Their testimony is not going to be based on their

vision. It’s going to be based on how that is comprehended from the eyes to the

brain, and everybody’s going to see that incident differently, or there’s a chance that

they can.

That’s another thing, maybe multiple people, but also it might just be a bystander

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

8

who just happened to pull into the parking lot that didn’t see that person yelling at

you or slamming on your car or hitting your car or kicking your car or whatever. All

they saw was you get out of the car and then you’re automatically the aggressor in

their mind.

Steve: Two things I’d like to add here, gentlemen, if this is okay. First of all is, I’ve

had a personal experience where I did get involved in a road rage incident that is

another motorist became angry at me. I thought that he had broken off complete

contact. I was driving to a place. It was actually a Jimmy John’s in Dallas to get

lunch. I got out of my car, looked around, went in there, got my order, went back to

the soft drink area to get my drink, and I turned around and there he was standing.

He had followed me covertly into the store for the purposes of confronting me there.

He actually caught me off guard because I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to come

up behind me like he did.

To that end, I’d like to caution concealed carriers to always assume that if you were

indeed involved in such a situation and you go to another place thinking that, okay,

the dance is over, the dance may not be over. To that end, you probably need to be

cognizant of what is going on around you. That’s number one.

Number two is I am a huge fan of staying in your automobile and not leaving your

automobile unless such time that someone or some people come up and start

shooting at you. Staying in your automobile during a gunfight is not a good place to

be. If there’s no reason to get out of that automobile, that is that person is not giving

you any reason to, okay, hey, I’m locked in here, I’m somewhat safe. I want to make

sure that I’ve got that automobile in park, the emergency brake on, the windows up,

and the doors locked, and I want my seatbelt off in case I need to get out of there

very, very fast.

To me, there’s not a hard, fast rule of you always need to stay in your car or you

always need to get out of your car. It’s somewhat situation contingent. I’d like to hear

what your guys’ thoughts are on it.

Stan: Just to piggyback real quick, I want to state that, you always have to have the

mindset, even positioning your vehicle. When I park at just red lights, I set back far

enough to where I’ve got about a half a car distance that I can actually maneuver. If

somebody even got out and did an ambush, I’m ready to maneuver my car to push

through that void.

I always think about avoidance and de-escalation first. In saying that, and you talked

about putting your car in park and your emergency brake on, prior to that, I always

think about driving away is the best option. That’s my take on it.

Steve: Again, I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear. Basically, you’ve reached your

location. You’re at your final location and you’ve stopped your car. In a lot of

instances, if you’re parked in a parking lot where there’s other vehicles, and being

able to leave in your vehicle is no longer an option, that would be my thoughts there.

No, I agree.

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

9

What I’ll also say is, I always make it a point when I stop behind another vehicle that

I can see the back of their tires. If I can see the back of the tires of the vehicle in front

of me, I typically have enough space to drive around it.

Mike: Yes, my take on that, I agree, you have to be fluid. You have to remain fluid in

whatever you do. You have to retain your situational awareness. You have to use

your peripheral vision to get your surroundings. I think that one of the things we talk

about in this series, this upcoming series that’s going to be the aftermath, is giving up

environmental control in certain instances. If you are in a car and somebody’s

talking, if somebody’s approaching you or whatever, by opening that door or rolling

down that window, you’re giving up that environmental control that you have that

there’s a barrier.

If you pulled into a parking space and if you couldn’t back out, if they blocked you in

and came to your car, if you open the door, then that can be putting yourself into that

position. I do agree with Steve, you need to prepare to move rather quickly,

unbuckle, be prepared to maybe even go out the opposite door if you have to. If you

give up that environmental control of having that door shut, if that person opens your

door, now you are in a totally different place from a legal standpoint of using selfdefense.

If you open that door and then you end up getting into it with somebody and

you even draw a firearm, then it could possibly be a brandishing issue. If you leave

that door shut and try to diffuse the situation, to de-escalate it, if they didn’t open the

door and try to come in, that puts you in a whole different position legally, from a

legal standpoint, of having to use force.

I agree with both of you. I think that you have to maintain that environmental control,

try not to roll the window down or open the door. At the same time, if you’re blocked

in, number one, that’s pretty aggressive right there. You have to be prepared to

move out the other side if you have to. That’s a pretty hard situation if you’re put in

where somebody’s blocked you in. If you’re not blocked in, if you have any avenue to

continue on, back up, pull out, whatever, then I would say strongly do that. Because,

again, you opening a door or rolling down a window, that’s going to put you in a

position where there’s legally, from a legal standpoint, you may be entering into that

argument. Somebody may be pulling in and just seeing that part of it and not seeing

the first part. By leaving that window up, that door shut, if they then try to enter into

your car, we all know that legally that’s a huge change in the legal standpoint of the

use of force at that time.

Stan: Absolutely. Then also, I think I’ve seen some crazy video. There’s some

instructor out there that tries to teach road rage and how to deal with people

approaching your car. I watched his video. It drove me crazy because he was turning

his head away while the guy was banging on the window. Then I guess they had a

tire tool. It just got out of hand. It was so cartoony.

Make sure you stay aware. You keep your eye on the person. Keep an eye on their

hands. Police officers always [inaudible 00:35:03] hands. The hands are what’s

going to kill you. Do that. If you find yourself outside of the vehicle, don’t immediately

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

10

go toward the person. Put the car between the two of you. You might have to do this

dance with them and stay on the opposite side of the vehicle so that they can

engage with you. Because, if you stop and you do that and it goes physical, because

verbal goes to physical, physical goes to weapons, and you know that you have a

weapon on you, I need all you guys to understand, and I actually have this tagline in

my email receipt, but you have to handle each one of these situations as if you didn’t

have a firearm on hip. You’ve got to think about each one of these, what would I do if

I didn’t have a firearm. If it’s deescalate and avoid, that’s what you need to do,

because a lot of people, they get too much courage because they know they have

the means to take someone’s life.

Please know that you have to be ready to walk away from it so that you don’t ruin

your life by doing such a thing.

Steve: I may have taken this down the wrong path. The point I was trying to make is

that sometimes you have to be adaptable to the circumstances. I think once you’re in

your car, it’s like being in your house. There’s really no good reason to leave your

house unless your house is on fire. If someone comes up to your car and they’re

walking up there and they have a gun, with proper training, you can still handle that

from inside your car, even with your windows up. It’s a complicated subject, and I

really didn’t mean to go down this road because we were talking about engaging in a

dance where our participation was not necessarily required. That is something that

may even be worth of another topic on down the road.

Stan: Oh, no, Steve.

Steve: It’s like I said, it can go so fast, too. It can go from 0 to 100 in a heartbeat,

too. You have to be fluid. You have to stay on top of your situational awareness. One

thing, Stan, is that you don’t have to look at somebody in the eyes to be able to see

their hands and their actions. There’s a lot of complex things in this. Guys, I’ve got to

head out. If you guys want to continue this conversation, you can continue it. I’ve got

to head out because I’ve got a meeting.

Stan: That’s Okay. We hit all the main points. Guys, just pay attention to the

takeaways that we’ve given you. [inaudible 00:37:49] topic that you deal with every

day. Make sure you keep yourself safe out there.

Steve, you’ve got anything on the way out?

Steve: I do not. Thanks for having me on, guys.

Mike: Hey, thanks for coming on, Steve. It’s always good to have you on. Check out,

he’s got a bunch of great articles on our site just like this topic today. Check those

out, and you guys stay safe out there.

Stan: All right, be safe.

Mike: Bye.

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

11

Stan: Bye-bye.

[00:38:40] [END OF AUDIO]

File name: ep48_Steve_Moses.mp3

12