Inside CCW Safe Podcast-Episode 29: HR218- Protecting The Protectors
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Episode 29: HR218- Protecting the Protectors
In this podcast, Stan and Mike talk with Gary Eastridge, Critical Response Coordinator and Affiliate manager for CCW Safe.
Gary is a retired law enforcement officer. He started with the Oklahoma City Police Department in February 1979 retiring in 2000 as an Inspector in the Homicide Unit. Gary also served as a department firearms instructor after receiving his CLEET certification in 1986. After retirement he worked as a police officer with the International Police Task Force (IPTF) in support of the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK). Gary worked homicides with counterparts from 53 nations as well as mentoring local Police officers. Gary was named Chief Investigator for the Oklahoma County District Attorney’s office in January of 2007 where he served until his retirement in April of 2017 to accept his position with CCW Safe. He reviewed all officer involved shootings occurring in Oklahoma County as well as in custody deaths and other significant and high profile investigations / prosecutions.
Gary is helping head up our new HR218 plans, along with Mike and Stan.
Stan Campbell, Co-Founder/COO
Stan Campbell has over 20 years of experience as a police officer in Oklahoma City. He retired as a Lieutenant over a street crime team, and spent over 10 years on the Tactical Unit (SWAT) and has spent 15 years developing and teaching self-defense curriculum. Stan is a certified National self-defense Instructor and has also instructed officers in British Territories. Stan has extensive experience and knowledge in the critical incident command system, officer involved shootings and use of force incidents.
Mike Darter, Co-Founder/CEO
Mike was a police officer in Oklahoma City from 1991-2001, and a federal contractor for the DOJ from 2001-2011. During his career, Mike investigated and testified in hundreds of violent crimes, including shootings, homicides, and other violent felony crimes. Mike was involved in a shooting as a police officer and went through a lawsuit from that shooting. The lawsuit was later dismissed, but his experience is what led to the creation of CCW Safe.
Speaker 1: 00:01 Welcome to the inside. CCWSAFE podcast with founders, Stan Campbell and Mike Darter. If you’re forced to fight the battle for your life, CCWCSAFE will fight the battle for your future.
Mike Darter: 00:22 Welcome to the inside CCWSAFE podcast, I’m Mike Darter in Oklahoma City.
Stan Campbell: 00:27 I’m Stan Campbell in California right now.
Mike Darter: 00:31 And we got Gary.
Gary: 00:33 Hey guys.
Mike Darter: 00:34 Gary’s also in Oklahoma City.
Stan Campbell: 00:37 That’s right.
Mike Darter: 00:38 So we normally do a weather report. I want to hear this, Stan? Is it nice out there?
Stan Campbell: 00:42 It really is kind of nice today.
Mike Darter: 00:45 You suck.
Stan Campbell: 00:46 It’s like, it’s like 68 degrees. It’s kind of beautiful.
Mike Darter: 00:49 It’s such a … It’s not bad here.
Stan Campbell: 00:52 Yeah. You know how it is though, but you know.
Mike Darter: 00:55 Yeah, yeah.
Stan Campbell: 00:56 Yeah.
Mike Darter: 00:59 What’s been going on with you two, anything new on the CCWSAFE front, you guys?
Stan Campbell: 01:06 Well, we are, I mean, we’re just all over the place. You know, we’ve been dealing with our awesome new clients over there in New York. Gary and I had been helping the NYPD retire guys in joining and welcoming them to the family. So we’re real happy about that. And we have ladies day is coming up, right Gary? Ladies days coming up this next month. And that’s in Orlando-
Gary: 01:37 A little over two weeks.
Stan Campbell: 01:39 That’s right in Orlando, so if you guys are in Orlando area, make sure you stop by and see me at Gary because we’ll be there with the ladies. We always sponsored that event, it’s an awesome event there. And so I think something about 500 women show up.
Mike Darter: 01:53 Wow.
Stan Campbell: 01:54 You know, for safety and concealed carry classes, a little bit of everything, right Gary?
Gary: 01:59 Yeah.
Mike Darter: 02:00 Now, where is that at?
Gary: 02:03 It’s at the Central Florida Rifle Pistol Club in Orlando. Just outside of Orlando, Florida. Good group. This is what, the fourth year I’ve think you’ve, we’ve been going down there.
Stan Campbell: 02:14 Yeah. We’re pretty much their main sponsors and we understand the importance of supporting women in the industry. You know, female carriers, the numbers are going up and we welcome them with open arms so we make sure we get down there and support all of our affiliates down there.
Mike Darter: 02:36 That’s cool. Then we also have the police week coming up as well in May.
Stan Campbell: 02:42 Yeah, police week. Yep.
Mike Darter: 02:44 What date is that?
Stan Campbell: 02:45 What’s the dates, Gary?
Gary: 02:46 May 12th through May 16th. I just worked out my calendar up there on the white board, which is now full. The next about six weeks we’re going to be really busy.
Stan Campbell: 03:00 That’s right.
Mike Darter: 03:02 All right. So if you’re going to be out in a police would come by and see us. We’re going to have some pretty, some kind of cool stuff to give out there.
Stan Campbell: 03:09 That’s correct. And then also myself, you, and Gary, we’re going to be in California supporting Unite Inland Empire 2019 Conservative Conference. So we’ll be out there. There’s about thousand in attendance out there. It’s being sponsored by AM590, The Answer. Those guys, they, we really help them out. They help us out. You know, we partner a lot. You got Phil with Firing Line radio show. I’ve been on there several times myself, Mike, our entire crew, I’ve had the opportunity to cohost, I have the opportunity to stand in as a host there on the radio show, and I mean they really take care of us. It’s just, they’re part of our family. So we’re going out to support them with the United Inland Empire Conservative Conference 2019, so we’ll be there also. That it’s April 28th, so if you guys are in that area, believe it or not California is our number two state in reference to a membership base. So if you there in that area come through and see is there as well.
Mike Darter: 04:14 Yeah, it’s going to be good time, man. I forgot about that.
Stan Campbell: 04:16 That’s right.
Mike Darter: 04:17 That’s coming up pretty quick too.
Stan Campbell: 04:18 Yeah, a lot going on.
Mike Darter: 04:20 So what are we talking about today?
Stan Campbell: 04:22 Well today we brought on Gary, because we want to kind of talk about, we’ve been going a lot of calls from retired policemen mostly, not truly having a good grasp on HR 218, the rules that apply, any changes that are being made there. So I wanted to bring Gary on to kind of talk about HR 218 and kind of break it down for folks, some myths, some problems, some things to watch out for. So it’s really important that all three of us carry under that realm as well and it’s important to know the do’s and don’ts. So I wanted to bring Gary on for that reason.
Mike Darter: 05:08 Cool. So Gary, so what, do you have any specific questions we could like start out with that you’ve got, or do you just want to start going over what it is?
Gary: 05:20 Well, I think the important thing for everybody … I think most officers have a general understanding of what’s commonly referred to as HR 218 it’s actually the law enforcement officers safety act. It was signed into law in 2004 by President Bush. It’s been amended a couple of times over the last what, 15 years that it’s been in existence. But it’s really a pretty simple law. The HR 218 was the house resolution … (silence) … forces that I use myself of the NRA … (silence) … They’re not fully on board with LEOSA because they don’t have a whole lot of input with it. And that was, that’s actually by design that … (silence) … offices they let her stay … (silence) … know the extended coverage for a corrections officers and … (silence) … to be able to carry a gun anywhere in the US … (silence).
Mike Darter: 19:32 … often. Thank God I got a couple of family members that are policemen there. But … (silence).
Gary: 21:03 … it multiplies your force. But I’m thinking, so what happens is if you have a jurisdiction that may not be pro gun, that wants more gun control, they see this as an extension of that. And this is one way they want to limit LEOSAs.
Stan Campbell: 21:29 Got You. Now and I’m just asking your opinion now, Gary, but what’s your thoughts on, if it’s not too big of a deal to back up with a concealed carry in a specific state that you visited a lot. Like you go to Virginia a lot, you and I go to Orlando, we all go to Vegas, you know, so Nevada and stuff like that. What’s your thoughts on that?
Gary: 21:53 I have an Oklahoma permit. I don’t see a downside to having the state permit. In reality it should not be necessary with LEOSA. If this bill passes, I’m not sure I will re-up my state permit, but I don’t see a downside to having multiple permits.
Stan Campbell: 22:15 Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to get your opinion because I’m an advocate of getting the multiple permits as a backup. I mean it doesn’t take much to do so. And if you do run into that green officer, somebody who’s brand new and has no idea what LEOSA is, they, normally they know what concealed carry permit is. So that way you do have some type of backup as well. You have to think about how you engage, because no matter what, when we retire, it’s a culture. So when you retire, I mean once a policeman, usually always a policeman, it’s just in you. And you see something that goes wrong, you feel like you need to just jump in. So, you really have to be careful, and remember that hey I’m retired now. One of the things I might need to do before I just jump on into somebody’s domestic or whatever the case may be, or try to make a citizen’s arrest, because that’s what’s going to end up being, you might want to make sure you call 911 first too as an officer. Because we kind of move and think that we can handle something and then at times we’ll get in over our heads as well. It doesn’t take much.
Gary: 23:26 Yeah, absolutely. And then when the cops do show up, they’re not going to know you from anybody.
Mike Darter: 23:33 No, that’s right.
Gary: 23:34 I’m a firm believer as someone who carries under LEOSA and under a state permit, that before I’m going to intervene in a situation, someone has to be being hurt physically. I’m not going to try to stop a theft, I’m not going to try to stop an argument. I may watch it, call 911, tell them, hey this is getting ready to, this has potential to become violent. But I’m not gonna interject unless it becomes a, it’s a matter of significant injury to somebody.
Stan Campbell: 24:15 Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I mean I think of it the same way, you know, any more because of politics and because of the gray areas, you have got to absolutely think about taking care of yourselves out there. Take a extra moment. You know, if it’s not a Isis, al Qaeda situation, you’re not talking about somebody gunning down people in the church, of course you have to just react to that. But if it is like something simple arguments, the domestics, you know it’s not some serious violence going on, somebody steals a bag of Skittles, don’t think that you have to be the hero on that. So yeah. So that’s kind of where we are there. But anything else on that Gary, on any LEOSA issues?
Gary: 25:09 Well, I’m not being specific. I think it’s incumbent on any officer who is eligible for LEOSA to carry under LEOSA, to research and know the law. Because you remember how it was when we were on the streets, Stan. We had a thumbnail idea of a lot of laws. We had a not a real good understanding of maybe other than the handful that we routinely enforce. As an officer, I think it’s incumbent on you to learn LEOSA, plan ahead on how to respond to an officer who may not understand LEOSA. Research. When I started writing an article late last year only I was amazed at how much information is available on the Internet. And really even though it’s not as simple as it seems, it’s a pretty simple law.
Stan Campbell: 26:14 Yeah. Yeah. I mean-
Mike Darter: 26:19 One of the things I was going to say was one of the things we’re creating for this, for our members that are going to be HR 218 is a membership card that will have information on that card for law enforcement should you have to display it. And it’s going to be a card that states, the person carrying this card meets the requirements by LEOSA. You’ll have to carry it with … Gary, kind of talk about just right quick, the requirements, the things you have to have with that card.
Gary: 27:06 Yeah. The law requires you to have two things. It requires you to have a photo ID from the agency that you are or were a police officer at, excuse me, and proof of qualification within the last 12 months. So what I carry is my retired card and on the back of it I put on my qualification card. And every year, as long as it’s, here in Oklahoma, it’s CLEET, as long as a CLEET authorized instructor signs off and qualifies me, I update my card. That’s the only two things that are required by the law for an officer to carry. Now if I were in a situation like with you, I would probably take a snapshot of that letter showing my 10 years plus service to just to confirm my eligibility under LEOSA.
Mike Darter: 28:11 Right. Yeah. So that’s-
Gary: 28:14 Nowadays with smart phones it’s so easy to carry all that with you that you can produce that and for that matter you can show them the actual law for those that don’t understand.
Mike Darter: 28:27 Right. So that’s what I carry now is I have another card that I have that I carry with my card that you signed on my qualification that’s dated. And then I do have my police ID, or a copy of my police ID and I have a copy of that letter. So, and I’m actually looking forward to these cards cause they look awesome. Justin’s done them.
Gary: 28:58 I was gonna say, our content guy is pretty good at that kind of thing.
Mike Darter: 29:01 Oh yeah, yeah. He’s been killing it so. So I’m excited about this new plan coming out. I think it’s going to be one thing with, generally with law enforcement officers, retired and former officers, we all know the possibilities of what can happen and it’s going to be a good deal. The everything wrapped into it with the civil liability coverage and the extended bail and all that. So yeah, I’m excited to get it out.
Gary: 29:39 It’s going to be a good product.
Mike Darter: 29:42 I’ve got, I’ve found one email that I’d like to, while I’ve got you guys on here, from Matt [Bell, 00:29:53] he sent in a copy of his umbrella plan document from his, and he said, “I listen to your podcast, episode number 26 I checked my umbrella policy, which I hoped would cover us in a self-defense situation. It appears that it does, but I would appreciate if you would confirm this. I,” and he attached a document of his plan. And you know this is one thing that has kind of come up recently more and more and it’s one thing that really for us to confirm it, we’re not the ones that need to confirm it. Your insurance company is the one that’s going to have to confirm this and here’s what my take is on it for Mark and whoever else, or Matt and whoever else has this question, because it comes up a lot.
Mike Darter: 30:51 You have to remember that your insurance company, first of all, have you guys, I know you three have dealt with insurance in the past, correct?
Stan Campbell: 30:59 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gary: 30:59 Yes.
Mike Darter: 31:01 And when you’re making a claim, they, whether it be a car or roof or whatever, they send adjusters out, they send people to come out and especially if it’s a use of force situation, there will be attorneys involved for that insurance company. And here’s my fear with anything that goes through an insurance company. I don’t know about you guys, but my experience with insurance companies has not been, I mean it’s been okay, I guess. I mean, I’ve been covered on things, but it’s always not what you think you’re gonna get back. There’s always some, well, it was this, so that gets deducted, it isn’t.
Gary: 31:58 And those attorneys are working with the interest of the insurance company, not the insured.
Mike Darter: 32:04 Right, and this is one thing when we created our service, when we first started this back in 2012 we said, we don’t want to be grouped or seen as an insurance company because most states, if not all states, it’s illegal to cover an intentional act or an illegal act with an insurance policy or coverage. So any attorney working on the behalf of an insurance company, I think it easily argue, even if your homeowner guy says, “Oh yeah, we’re going to cover you,” well, he’s not the one that’s going to be going to bat for you when that time comes, if you have to try to make a claim. The person who is going to be going to bat is going to be going to bat for the insurance company trying to deny that claim.
Gary: 33:08 Mike have, I’ve had several members asked that exact question and I told each of them to call their broker and get them to put it in writing. Of the ones that responded, 100% have told me that their agents said they would not cover a self-defense situation.
Mike Darter: 33:27 Yeah. So I just, I saw that come in and I just wanted to address that because I know we have that topic discussed a lot with you guys, especially with David, but you guys who are answering the calls and and all that. So-
Gary: 33:48 I think it gets down to that issue. Just like in New York and Washington state. Insuring for intentional acts.
Mike Darter: 33:56 Yup. Yup. So Matt, I would definitely say to check, Like Gary said, like Gary tells everybody, get it in writing. Call your insurance agent, get it in writing. I don’t think they’re going to put that in writing. So I didn’t see any others. I thought I had some others that I had set aside on the, in reference to the podcast, but I can’t find them now.
Stan Campbell: 34:25 So well, what would we do Mike, is being that we’re not interviewing anybody on the next one. If we do one by ourselves, we’ll make sure we’ll have a list and we’ll go through them as well.
Mike Darter: 34:36 Okay? Cool. All right guys. Well, Gary, thanks for your time, man.
Gary: 34:42 Enjoyed it.
Stan Campbell: 34:42 Thanks Gary.
Mike Darter: 34:42 Stan, good to see you again.
Stan Campbell: 34:46 I’ll see you soon.
Mike Darter: 34:47 All right, man. Take care, bye-bye.
Stan Campbell: 34:47 All right, bye.