In Self Defense – Episode 77: Tatiana Whitlock on the Kristen McMains Case

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In Self Defense – Episode 77: Tatiana Whitlock on the Kristen McMains Case

TRANSCRIPT:

Shawn Vincent:

So Tatiana, when we spoke to you last, you had sent to us a list of cases that had popped to your attention over the last few years. And I want to talk about one of those cases today. You remember the Kristen McMains case.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Yes I do.

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah. So that became a high-profile case. And this is a young woman. She’s a lawyer, she’s in Louisville, Kentucky. And tell us what you understand about what happened to her one night when she was leaving work.

Tatiana Whitlock:

So McMains was leaving work and she’s a lovely, lovely, smiling very generous-spirited person. She’s not someone that looks like a vulnerable prey, but because she even describes herself as someone that smiles a lot and is engaging with people, she could be misinterpreted as vulnerable or an easy attack. Someone who wasn’t going to fight back. And on her way back to her car, she was leaving work. She had to go to get to her car in a parking garage. She got in the elevator of the parking garage and there are no security cameras to capture her attack.

Tatiana Whitlock:

So when she left the elevator, there is no footage of her attacker attacking her. Well, an individual entered into the elevator with her. And when she departed the elevator, he pursued her, and a very vicious attack ensued. And we can discuss the details of that as we go. Fortunately, the good — let’s put a little positive in here — she did survive the attack and was able to protect herself and defend herself with a Beretta Tomcat 32. There’s a lot of discussion and a lot of discussion that came out of this case about proper security and surveillance and women carrying concealed. This spurred a lot of interesting topics and we’re going to dive into those.

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah. And so I remember from the reading that when she’s in the elevator, this guy who looked a little suspicious gets in, and she realizes when he doesn’t push a button on the elevator that she’s probably going to have a problem with this guy.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Yes. She said she had an instinctive feeling she was going to die.

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah. Unless she “did something,” she said. And then she bolts to the car according to the Atlantic Courier-Journal newspaper article, the man chased her, and she was able to get one leg inside the car before he tackled her, slammed her head and stabbed her in the abdomen with a rusty eight-inch serrated knife. And because when we get into this, some of the details I remember is that he struck her in the face and made some mention that he wanted money. He pushed her into the passenger side of the car, and she said that she had just cashed a check and had money, put her hand in his face and reached in with the excuse of going for money into her purse to get the Beretta. And one thing I think it’s important that we want to talk about is when she pointed it and pulled the trigger it didn’t fire at first and she kept pulling the trigger until it did.

Shawn Vincent:

And she shot this guy I think a few times — she got them into the neck and the buttocks, and eventually she was able to get away to safety. So one thing you mentioned and this has popped up in the news a few times, one from a gun rights self-defense advocacy because this point-of-view was brought up originally when this event happened, and then it came up later when she sued the company that owned this parking garage for like you said, didn’t have security cameras, didn’t probably have proper lighting. And there’s what in the civil litigation business, we call a negligent security claim here that they didn’t take responsible measures to protect their folks against known threats. And one thing I find from being involved in self-defense law and this negligent security law on behalf of plaintiffs is that the very things that we look out for in negligent security law are things that we tell people who are interested in self-defense to look out for. And so from your perspective, from a lifestyle logistics point-of-view, what are your concerns about this location and being a woman alone at a place like that?

Tatiana Whitlock:

Well, it’s like you said lifestyle consideration. If you have no options but to park in that type of parking structure and that’s what you’ve got to work with. You’ve got to have some realistic expectations about what you’re presenting yourself with for potential threats and dangers. And the first issue being your proximity to your point of entry, how close can you park to the elevator or the staircase? You don’t have to be in that environment for any more prolonged time than necessary. Just the same as parking near the door and under light at an outdoor struck parking area, we want to have that same kind of logic and an indoor parking garage too. Don’t be in there longer than you need to be. The second thing is to be aware you cannot play the, I’m going to be kind and polite and generous and loving with all of my heart for humanity. If you’re alone you have to be very vigilant. You have to be paying attention especially as a woman because we are probably going to be attacked more so than the gentlemen are.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Simply because we look like we’re going to put up less of a fight. So not saying to have that hypervigilance to the point of paranoia where you’re convulsing with fear. However, mindfulness and awareness and having the tools to see in dark spaces. Handheld flashlight, perhaps some pepper spray readily at your disposal. Some tools that can keep you from having people get close enough to you. Prepping strategically with parking, prepping with strategic tools and awareness all of that is key. The last component of this is to not negate … I’ll call it gut feeling, but your gut can often lie. Your gut has gone through a lifetime of social conditioning that will probably tell you if you’re female too, “don’t overthink it and just be polite. And I’m sure I’m just overreacting.” So the gut can go both ways. We love to rationalize ourselves out of fear. It’s that “normalcy bias” concept. And as we hear in this story, McMains had a gut feeling that did not feel right. She knew something was wrong. Now, if you have an opportunity to leave we strongly recommend you leave.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Meaning if someone walks into an elevator, you also have an opportunity to get out. Even if that’s not your floor, they don’t know that. So don’t be stuck in a trapped compartment with somebody that you’re uncomfortable with, get out and leave. Start those lines of communication. Make sure you’re visible to cameras, be mindful of where those cameras are, make sure you’re in their view and take the next ride up or take the stairs. So mind your options, see what’s available and exercise every tool you have to avoid a conflict. So trust your gut, but be mindful of the counteracting brain to the gut and put all of those strategies to work. Our ultimate goal is to never have to use any of the tools we train so hard to master, ultimately hope to never have to use that firearm. But thankfully she had one that day, that fight that she got in was so violent it ripped all ten of her fingernails off. This wasn’t a short attack. This was a prolonged, very vicious attack. And she fought that hard and it took a firearm to solve that problem, to ensure that she lived.

Shawn Vincent:

I want to pick up on one thing you said there, and Steve, you and Don and I talked recently about the Womack shooting, which has similar facts, where we have a guy who left a gym and was walking into the parking lot to his car where he was attacked by Alan Womack. And you had given some options, basically if the defender in that point waited until his attacker was actually attacking him, had actually drawn his gun and racked it before he responded and do you remember him talking about opportunities he had before that to engage?

Steve Moses:

Yes, absolutely. One was… Again, the way that he disengaged and I realized this is a different situation, anything he could have done that would not have perhaps caused the eventual attacker to become more agitated, such as exchanging hot words that should have been avoided. Second, it might’ve been better had he opened that gym door and saw the eventual attacker out there to not go out there on the way out as he was moving towards his vehicle once he saw that particular person. Again, we’re assuming he did see him in advance to go ahead and retreat back. So there were a number of things. One of the things I thought was just kind of key in the article that I wrote regarding Ms. McMains incident was that she was nervous when she saw the man in the skywalk.

Steve Moses:

And so right there was opportunity number one. And again, our goal here is not to criticize what this person did, basically who was developing a plan as she went. And fortunately she survived. She did come up with a plan on the go and made it work. But again, someone else saying, “Okay, now I have the ability to look at this and learn from this.” The fact that she knew she was going to a small area where she would be for all practical work purposes, she wouldn’t be able to get out of thereL that’s really probably not a good decision. I do like what Tatiana said, if you’re in that elevator and someone starts coming in and especially when she said, “I saw he didn’t push a button.” That would have been a good opportunity to try to get out. So any of these little things might’ve been able to prevent that. And certainly that’s good advice for someone else going from this day and forward.

Shawn Vincent:

And Tatiana with that caveat that Steve put out there that when we look back especially in these cases where someone clearly was violently attacked and they successfully defended themselves and survive the situation whenever critical in a negative context. But we always look at these as opportunities for other concealed carriers to learn with the benefit of 2020 hindsight. So that said, here’s what I’m curious about: if let’s say she didn’t get suspicious of this guy before getting into the elevator and she stuck in an elevator with him. I think there’s lots of opportunity for people to realize they’re being followed while they’re walking to their car in a parking lot scenario. And in this case, her goal was to try to get into the car and get away. But maybe if you feel like you’re going to have to engage with somebody how long do you wait? Or is there a way to engage them before they engage you to try to put an end to it? What are your thoughts on that?

Tatiana Whitlock:

There are a lot of strategies and there is no one that can quantify. There’s no one recipe for an answer to that question because it really is attacker and situation dependent. So the best way that I can frame this is the gut conversation, having the tools at your disposal, but we can even rewind a step farther back than that. Are you in that environment aware enough to pick up on who’s following you? I see so often people are glued into their cell phones with this false sense of security via digital connectivity to a third party. They don’t feel like they’re alone because they’re in a text conversation with someone, but they are physically and quite literally alone in that moment. So that security blanket of a digital conversation does not equate to someone else there to keep you safe. So the cell phone really needs to get put away so that when you’re working through or moving through those structures, you have hopefully a fraction of a second more to be aware, to pick up on that person that’s following you so you can make better decisions to stay distant.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Now, if you’re in that confined environment and the mood changes or the attacker is a good one, meaning they’re good at what they do and they haven’t given you those warning signs, you haven’t picked up on those vibes that’s a different situation. Now you’re in a confined tight environment and the type of attack is going to determine the type of response that you make. So I’m not advocating that you pepper spray everyone that makes you uncomfortable uf you’re stuck in an elevator with them, or stairwell with them. However, we’d like to try and not to have to get to guns. So avoidance, what do you have for less lethal tools at your disposal? And are you effective with them? Have you even trained with pepper spray? It is not a purchase and instant proficiency tool. You need that training too. So it’s a multi-pronged experience. And I’ve talked with Steve on a number of occasions and he has some great information on verbal commands and establishing yourself verbally, body language. And rather than me to do sing that I’d love to turn it over to Steve to share some of those strategies.

Steve Moses:

Well, I appreciate that. A big part is acknowledging that person’s presence, letting them know indeed that you have seen them in many instances. My experience has been that females will, a lot of times, try to avoid making eye contact with a person in which they don’t want to get engaged to or engage with. They’re just as if it might be inviting, but the very action of simply looking at that person, acknowledging them, not continuing this baleful stare as I’ve heard recommended by some people before, but say, “Okay, I see you. I know who you are. I’m aware that you’re there.” I think probably I think that’s valuable letting that person know that, “Okay, you may not be that easy to overtake” Secondly, talking to the person, “Hey, I need you to stay back.”

Steve Moses:

In many instances shouting that out to the point that there is no question that person understands that they need to stay back, that perhaps you’ve attracted the attention of others I think that is also very valuable. In reference to pepper spray, pepper spray I think is a highly useful tool. As I read what happened to her, I’m not sure that she would have ever had the opportunity to use it. And so some people that think pepper spray, “Okay, that’s actually going to be the answer to almost everything.” It’s often not, especially when you’re attacked at relatively short range and the person is moving in a rapid manner. So in that particular instance, having something that bridges the gap if you will, between even pepper spray and a firearm in many instances is going to be just a small fixed blade knife. A person that knows how to use a small fixed blade knife.

Steve Moses:

A lot of women could carry those and do carry them in their purses. My wife carries one. She has one in each of the purses she carries. The ability to use that knife and bring it into play, understand how it should be used so that you’re not easily disarmed. I think that’s an important tool. One of the things that concerned me and I’d like to hear Tatiana’s thoughts on this too, was the handgun of choice. That Beretta 32 is a very small-framed pistol. It has a tip up barrek. The way it operates is different than most of the other pistols that concealed carriers see today.

Steve Moses:

The controls on it are relatively small. It has a safety that’s relatively small too. It may be very difficult to operate under stress. And especially if you have not practiced with that and shot that gun so often that everything that you do becomes almost subconscious, that is you don’t have to think about “what do I need to do to get this gun working” as opposed to, “Okay, I’ve got a problem here. I need to think about what I need to do in order to survive this situation and then bring that gun into play.” So Tatiana, I’d kind of like to hear what your thoughts are in regards to the pistol that she selected.

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah. And including the fact that it didn’t seem to fire the first time she pulled the trigger.

Tatiana Whitlock:

It did have some problems for her. Yes. So not knowing exactly how that firearm managed to have that initial issue. The fact that she just kept at it is a testament to her over the equipment. She kept fighting. She did not stop. And that alone is one of the strongest self-defense realities we try to impart to women. You fight until you win. You fight until it is over. You don’t fight until you get an “owie” or a “booboo.” You do not stop. And she didn’t. She did not give up. She did not quit. As far as the relationship to the Tomcat itself, it wouldn’t have been my first choice, but I’m so grateful she had it. So having one over not having one, please consider adopting a  firearm into your strategy because if she did not have that tool, I do not believe the outcome would have been positive for her at all.

Tatiana Whitlock:

We would have been reading a very different story from the outcome. So when I come down to fitting people, then that’s what it comes down to fitting people with the right handgun for them for concealed carry. My strategy is never the smallest possible gun. My strategy is always the largest possible gun that I can fit that individual with, that fits their hands properly and can adapt to them for concealment safely and adequately, meaning that they can conceal comfortably. So I take the far other end of the spectrum for most new concealed carriers who think they have to go small. And the last possible place I really want to see people put their gun is in their purse or off-body carry. And that’s…

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah. I wanted to talk to you about this.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Absolutely. It’s not to say that off-body carry cannot be done well — it can be done well, but I would argue that off-body carry is perhaps the most demanding concealed carry strategy that we have available to us. And with the advances we’ve made and beltless carry, the Enigma from Phlster for example, we’ve got so many new fantastic belly band solutions and garments that are strategically designed to accept and receive a holster. We’ve come a long way for options for individuals to carry on body successfully and comfortably and with a big gun. So we don’t have to go with these micro itty bitties and throw them in a purse. We’ve got a lot more available to us.

Tatiana Whitlock:

So the only thing that we could hope for is that if we were going to up the ante on this experience is that she had had a higher capacity firearm that she had trained with just like Steve mentioned to the point where she knows it like an extension of her soul, and that she had a firearm that was a wee bit more reliable in her hands and in application. And that’s ultimately the goal. We want to make sure that this gun is not a fashion accessory. This is a tool you are literally betting your life on. So you’re going to want to choose a tool that you’d bet your life on. And that’s the priority when we’re picking those tools, not really size — and hopefully the more capacity the better — or what color it is. If it comes down to it, what are you going to bet your life on?

Shawn Vincent:

Tell me a little bit more, because you heard us talk about the Womack shooting and one Sunday-morning-quarterback observation that Steve made then, and that was that he kept his or he had his pistol in his gym bag. And we decided that because the other guy pulled and racked his gun already, that the defender in that case was lucky that he was able to get his pistol into an operational position fast enough to actually save his life. So tell me about the challenges of carrying a gun in your purse as opposed to on your body.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Sure. So purse carry typically starts for people where they purchase a handgun and they load it and they literally drop it into the purse. And that makes me cringe. And I’ll go prematurely gray as an instructor, because that is fraught with problems and severe safety concerns. So the next step we want to take people is to ensure that the loaded firearm is in fact successfully holstered in a holster that completely covers the trigger guard and retains the gun, meaning the gun can’t just fall out. It has to be secured in that holster as a solid envelope around the gun preventing any lipstick, keychain, keys, you name it from getting into that trigger guard.

Shawn Vincent:

So your keychain doesn’t get caught on the trigger while you’re… Yeah, exactly.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Yes. Oh my gosh. Even zipper pulls in the inside pockets of persons can become a real issue. So we cannot allow any paraphernalia, let alone fingers of yours to inadvertently grasp and clasp around that trigger as you’re trying to rummage around for other things or draw the gun. Unfortunately there are a few too many cases of small children digging around and purses and having the grip strength which many people don’t think that they have, but they do to compress that trigger and fire the gun sometimes with fatal results. So that gun must be holstered in a successful holster. The next level into this is you have to strategize the location of that holstered gun within the bag. Now most purses and many backpacks often are just fashion bags, meaning they’re really not designed to support the weight of the gun.

Tatiana Whitlock:

The inner pockets are often just single ply, very smooth and pliable fabric, very compliant. And they’re really not often built geometry-wise to have enough space while you may be able to slip the gun into those pockets or zippered areas without, like, an envelope like a letter going into an envelope. When you go to access the gun, you have to unzip that zipper. You have to dive your hand into that pocket. You have to wrap your hands and fingers around the grip, and now you’ve expanded what’s trying to come out of that pocket. So sometimes we see people with their hands with their grip on the gun in the bag, but they can’t get their fist out of the bag. It’s a monkey with their hand in the jar, they’re stuck.

Tatiana Whitlock:

And realizing only in that moment that, “Oh, we have a problem.” And I ask, “What would you do?” And if you’re able to clear the gun from the holster, are you aware enough of where you are in relation to the gun in the bag with your other body parts and your attacker are you capable of firing through that bag? And that question really starts to open up a new can of worms. Oh, what do you mean? Well, what do you mean I’d have to fire through the bag? Well, you might just have to if that’s all you get the equivalent of firing from retention is a different strategy. It starts getting uncomfortable and the consequences start magnifying. So the bag itself becomes the equivalent of the cover garment from concealment and as all of us know who carry concealed, the biggest variable for every concealed carrier is the garment.

Tatiana Whitlock:

That is your concealment garment. What fabric is it? What drape is it? What fit is it to you? Does it have elastic material? Does it have sensitized pull ties? Does it have buttons? Is it a structured, rigid garment? Is it tailored to you? Is it open front? Does it have zippers? Does it go down to your knees? All of the things that make fashion fashion start turning into concealed carry nightmares if you don’t strategize those garments well. And that’s where many people, quote, quote, “fumble the football” on the draw, and you cannot allow that if you’re in a fight. So the purses are not an instant solution, but why do many people go to them? Well, because most ladies coming to concealed carry have had a purse in their possession since they were a young teenager.

Tatiana Whitlock:

And it’s an easy receptacle for an accessory. The problem being that the gun is not an accessory and shouldn’t be treated like that. It needs a lot more care and consideration. However, where are you going to conceal it? You have to be in a little black dress. Well, probably a clutch, probably a purse. So there is a need to learn how to do these things well, but like I said it takes another type of investment and training in classes specifically designed to manage and strategize gear and bags and backpacks, gym bags, you name it. Vicki Farnam puts on a phenomenal program specifically for off-body purse and backpack carry. So there are trainers out there of real merit who are doing great work to deliver this information, but you really need to go seek it out.

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah, that’s fascinating because she had to manufacture a reason to go into her purse to get her pistol in this case. And if she had fumbled it there’s a real possibility that her attacker could have gotten ahold of that gun and used it against her, and then that’s a nightmare result. So, hey, Tatiana we’ve got Don West. He is National Trial Counsel for CCW Safe who is, among other things, a fantastic listener. Don has been on the line with us this whole time. And Don, I wanted to toss this to you for a second because we often look at cases where the defenders, if not tactically, even legally made a couple of mistakes that make the shooting controversial. But when we look at a case like this, there’s not a lot from a legal analysis to look at. She was so far beyond reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death that there’s not a lot of questions about legal justification here.

Don West:

I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation up to this point. The idea of weapon selection, and concealment and preparation for these kinds of things as people in their daily lives have to park their car somewhere and get back and forth to work. And just the mindset that’s involved in anticipating that the unthinkable could, in fact, happen. And how will you deal with that? That’s fascinating for me. A guy that’s got female children, young mothers who have these heightened concerns when somebody like this fellow John Ganobcik, I think is his name. I don’t know how you pronounce it, but he was and he’s beginning to attack her.

Shawn Vincent:

That was as good as good and attempt as any…

Don West:

Pardon me?

Shawn Vincent:

That was as good an attempt as any of his last name. I wasn’t sure if I would pronounce it better.

Don West:

You know there is a lot of public information available on just about everybody, especially if you happen to be in the Department Of Corrections somewhere, and I’m happy to report that Mr. Ganobcik was successfully prosecuted. He’s currently in the Kentucky prison system and he’s going to be serving a significant number of years. It’s in fact possible he won’t be released until sometime late in 2036. And I don’t know how anybody could look at the facts of this case and his determination to continue his violence. And his victim selection fully expecting to physically overwhelm Ms. McMains and being prepared to inflict serious injury, if not death, by taking a weapon with him, how this guy shouldn’t deserve to spend every minute of that time. But when she got on the elevator with him, it was unclear what his intentions were. He’s about five-nine, maybe 160 pounds. He’s bigger than she is, heavier than she is. And I think reasonably she would think that if this guy did something, “I can’t physically defend myself.”

Don West:

As we all know from Tatiana and Steve and other instructors, that’s not enough for your fear to be reasonable. That’s not enough for you to then become the aggressor. You can anticipate the fact that he may very well be the person you suspect he is and deal with it then, but you can’t shoot somebody in an elevator because they give you a funny look or even say something unless you can articulate a clear basis on why you feared a great bodily harm or death. Now, he very quickly went well beyond that as soon as he approached her, as soon as he laid hands on her, certainly as he began to try to physically overwhelm her — all of those fears that she may have at one point may have been irrational or may not have been truly reasonable were clearly manifested there. And she had every right and every reason to defend herself up into including lethal force. And I would argue that under these circumstances, Tatiana and Steve may want to disagree with me since they’ve been hands-on in their lifetime more than I have.

Don West:

But at the point that he is physically overwhelming her, even if he doesn’t have a deadly weapon, I think she’s reasonably in fear of great bodily harm or death. His intent is clear. His ability to inflict that harm is clear even without a weapon. And I believe that’s one of those scenarios — they’re rare, but there are scenarios where you have the right to use deadly force legally against so-called unarmed attacker. From another legal standpoint in many jurisdictions, you have the right to defend using lethal force against the commission of a forcible felony of some sort. This was a robbery attempt at least. So I think from a legal standpoint, she would also have some protection there upto and including the use of her firearm against the imminent commission of this robbery. So you’re right, Shawn though, this isn’t a hard call for anybody. I can’t imagine this wasn’t a stranger; there was no history. It was clear what his intentions were. He intended and in fact inflicted serious injuries. So all the boxes were checked and her response was reasonable and legal, and thank God, successful.

Shawn Vincent:

Well, like you said, even without the eight-inch rusty serrated knife, he’s still a threat. We call it the defender’s dilemma, the big controversies we find when an armed defender shoots an unarmed attacker or a disproportionately armed attacker. But a lot of the cases that we’ve talked about involve defenders who are men, and when Markis McGlockton shoved Michael Drejka onto the ground, Michael Drejka wasn’t reasonably concerned that Markis McGlockton was going to rape him. And in this case, the defender articulated this fear, I think it was a reasonable fear and Tatiana, do you come across this in your training? I mean, I feel like here’s what I’m seeing in a lot of the cases that you sent to us, that female defenders seem to tend to wait longer than male defenders do to engage their attackers. And that’s a generalization based on the anecdotal stories that we’ve come up with, and that makes their legal defense stronger, obviously — almost to the detriment that they come closer to losing the fight. I’m wondering if that triggers anything from your experience.

Tatiana Whitlock:

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. And this is that social conditioning for women to be polite, to be gracious, not to be judging, you’re overthinking things, don’t be judgmental, you’re profiling, you’re overthinking. This is that societal gaslighting of women’s intuition that is just prevalent and our country does a much better job of acknowledging it and try to counteract that through good solid women’s self-defense courses and making sure that women’s voices are heard and acknowledged, but training a woman to pay attention to what she perceives is very, very important, but it does add time. And that self-doubt, that concern of being wrong, often will delay a response, as you said, sometimes to their detriment. However, it also is something that we try to teach to some gentlemen who are ready to just dive in and go full on out there, which is all right. If you took a half a second more, what more information could you gather in that half a second? Not at the pause, but an information gathering half a second more to make the right choice. That’s the best next step.

Shawn Vincent:

Steve before we wrap up, I want to see if you have any additional insights into this case.

Steve Moses:

The first thing that we noted was that based on what I’m looking at right now is she chose a handgun that was probably not suitable for the job. So for concealed carriers and readers I very much agree with what Tatiana said. I think that going forward we need to make sure that we have a tool that is reliable, ergonomic, and relatively easy to use, not with a lot of complex small controls that require a lot of manipulation under times of stress. The second thing is she mentioned that she watched nervously as the man seemed to stalk her. So that is an opportunity for us to go, “Okay. There’s something going on here right now? Maybe I need to take an action that will not make me more vulnerable.” Third, when she did go ahead and she got in the elevator, she became nervous because the man didn’t select a floor.

Steve Moses:

And so what she did was she bolted and she ran to her car. Now I like the whole idea of the bolting thing, but I would just say maybe this is a good idea for people to think about having a plan. What would I do if this happened? If I’m going to run a short distance and then stop and try to get into my car, which I assume is going to be locked, I’m going to have to open the door that’s going to slow me down. That’s going to give somebody an opportunity to close on me. The other thing is… And I really liked the way she fought back and everything, but she kept trying to shoot the guy and it was not working. And again, I don’t really have a full picture of what this might have looked like, but I have an image right now, this person being in relatively close contact, and she was probably more than likely extending that gun away from her body where it could have been grabbed. So this is something that we can learn to do.

Steve Moses:

Craig Douglas has a fantastic system of retention shooting. I know Tatiana knows how to do it. A lot of instructors know how to use a handgun in close proximity to another person in such a way that’s difficult for them to disarm you. And you always know where the muzzle of that handgun is so that you don’t inadvertently shoot yourself, which is something that can happen. In some instances, people literally shoot themselves in the offhand, after the bullet has traveled through the other person’s body. If that makes sense. So a penetrating wound went ahead and struck them. And so these are just all little things that stood out for me that, “Okay, these are lessons that we can learn and use this information to help us prepare for a day like this that we hope that never comes.”

Shawn Vincent:

Yeah. And again, the lesson is, if you’re going to make the investment and commitment to be a concealed carrier than investing in the training to be familiar with your firearm and how to use it in different circumstances is key.

Steve Moses:

Yeah. Make that commitment, get that training. And as Claude Warner says, “Have a general plan.”